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Is cocked and locked dangerous

6K views 33 replies 23 participants last post by  LabMan 
#1 ·
Since I am a hobby gunsmith, I regularly ask myself this question. This is the best write up on this topic with real life stories to give it credence.

Is Cocked and Locked Dangerous?
 
#5 ·
...I will just toss the "condition 3" or "3+" idea out there for any homes where there are kids in the mix. The physical requirements necessary to chamber that first round make a "condition 3" pistol way safer in the hands of a 7 year old. My home defense gun (Ruger LC9s) is kept on a hidden shelf in the nightstand, in "condition 3+" for that reason. "Condition 3+" is unchambered round in the magazine "+" the safety on. You've got to swipe the thumb safety to release the slide, then beyond that the recoil spring is 18#ish. That being said in my home everything is otherwise locked away. If not for my daughter I'd have no problem with keeping a "condition 1" 1911 in a drawer.
 
#6 ·
There are many good articles on that web site. I would never have a firearm in direct access to a small child. Be it an auto cocked and locked or a wheel gun.

My dad use to say no one was ever accidentally shot by a loaded firearm.
It was always the unloaded gun that killed someone. As I got older that finally made sense. " I didn't know it was loaded"
 
#10 ·
My dad use to say no one was ever accidentally shot by a loaded firearm.
It was always the unloaded gun that killed someone. As I got older that finally made sense. " I didn't know it was loaded"
I think our fathers went to the same school, I must have been 6 or 7 when my dad first said that to me.
 
#7 ·
It always amazes me how many think a glock and other similar pistols are so much safer than a cocked and locked 1911, when in my mind they are much more unsafe.

For a glock to fire (with a round chambered) all that has to happen is one thing, the trigger is pulled.

For a 1911 to fire (cocked and locked) three things have to happen. ALL THREE. 1) the manual safety has to be off, 2) the grip safety has to be disengaged and 3) the trigger has to be pulled. (The firing pin block is a wonderful safety feature added to the 1911 long ago.)

That sure seems safer to me than the glock style pistol. If only those people could see the "hammer" (striker) on the glock and see it as they do a 1911 then they might change their attitudes.

I don't recall ever hearing the term "1911 leg" but I sure have heard the term "glock leg" before. :eek:

Thanks Montana for the article.
 
#25 · (Edited)
Well said, I could not agree more. Precious little has to happen to have a Glock go bang when you don't want it to. I am convinced Glock coined the phrase "Safe Action" as nothing more than a highly successful marketing brain wash.

I like Glocks and have carried them professionally since 2000, I'm not a hater but it doesn't take a lot of imagination to see the potential for trouble.
 
#8 ·
In my house, my kids are grown but my wife keeps one of our grandson's during the workweek. I have bought two Liberty pistol vaults for my and her pistol. We never leave our pistols lying around. They are either on us or in the pistol vault locked away. We've programmed them with a semi-complex code so the kids don't accidentally open the vault just by pushing the buttons. We never let the grand kids see us putting the pistols in the vault or take them out. Yet they are there if we need them.

My opinion: I'd rather die trying to get to my pistol than to live with the knowledge one of my grand kids died because grand pa didn't take proper safety measures.
 
#9 ·
My opinion: I'd rather die trying to get to my pistol than to live with the knowledge one of my grand kids died because grand pa didn't take proper safety measures.
Very true!!
 
#11 ·
Cocked and Locked is, in my opinion, the only way a 1911 should be carried. I would never carry a firearm for protection that would require two hands to get the first round out. You might not have two working hands to use the firearm which could happen in many scenarios. Any double action has to have a round chambered which would make it close to a revolver that doesn't have a safety. When I started using the 1911 I'll admit that it made me jumpy. Somebody, on this forum I think, suggested carrying it around the house cocked and locked with no round in the chambered and see how many times the hammer falls. It didn't take me long to understand that this is the way the pistol is designed to be carried.
 
#13 ·
Somebody, on this forum I think, suggested carrying it around the house cocked and locked with no round in the chambered and see how many times the hammer falls. It didn't take me long to understand that this is the way the pistol is designed to be carried.
I did this for a month and went everywhere with it. Finally realized that it's safe to be cocked and locked. The safety never accidentally got knocked off and the trigger is covered. Now it's cocked and locked with one in the chamber at all times.
 
#12 ·
If I carry, I'm more comfortable with a wheel gun. Although I have as many autos. I will carry with a load in the tube, and locked. But starting out with a wheel 6 that has never failed to feed or fire. I rely on a wheel in the house, and if that situation arises.... fire 6, and then back up to a 15 round, or shotgun.
My dad always slept with his girlfriend between the mattress and sideboard.
He said. "Your mother knows this is my girlfriend. Don't touch her till your old enough".... oh, I got to shoot the M1 paratrooper carbine. But, that was his go to, hell with 7, grab 30 and settle the problem with firepower. He said "plaster can be repaired, your life can't".
 
#18 · (Edited)
Some of our older members might remember back about 2 years ago when I damaged a nerve that made my left hand almost useless for a couple of months. I continued to carry my Super Carry Pro in condition 1 feeling confident that I could adequately protect myself with it. Why my Super Carry Pro instead of a lighter Ultra, because the Super Carry Pro is one of the few guns Kimber makes with a rear sight with a cocking shoulder. In a pinch the gun can be cocked using the edge of a hard surface like a counter or by running it down your side and snagging your pocket. It sounds funny but it didn't take much practice to get the hang of it. I only wish Kimber would sell that sight, I'd have it on everyone of my carry guns.
 
#22 ·
The other day I decided to carry a 1911 in a new holster I had around the house to break it in and left it in condition 3. A while later while my wife got home with my daughter from college and we were unloading the car when a big loose dog got in amongst us and jumped into a fight with our dog in the driveway. My wife was knocked to the ground and I am grabbing the dog by the neck to get it off from my dog. I start thinking, I might have to shoot this dog to get it to stop the attack. Fortunately at this point I was able to get the dogs head up and my wife whisked our dog to the house while I held the intruder. In all that excitement I could never have racked the slide to get a shot off while holding the dog, etc. If my 1911 had been in condition 1 I could have easily unholstered, turned off the safety and used the weapon with one hand. That's why we should carry in condition 1, totally safe.
 
#23 ·
My buddy is a cop and freaked out when I showed him what I carried. When he realized it was a 1911 in condition 1 with one in the chamber he acted horrified like it was about to go off. I was actually taken back by his surprise and realized that he has been training with DA/SA handguns for 15+ years and recently got into striker fire and had no experience with 1911s for carry.

I told him that striker fire pistols are more likely to go off in holster/reholstering than my 1911. The thumb safety with a grip safety makes the 1911 a very safe carry.

But the true gun safety is the one in-between the ears and the index finger not on the trigger.

-Shin0bi1
 
#24 ·
Great read!

My go to has always been condition 1 even with my daughter in the house. Some may scoff but it's how I grew up. My father is Army retired and at the time current law enforcement and kept my brother and I informed on the use of firearms. Not so much that it was irritating and we'd roll our eyes, but not so little that it was exciting to "play with the guns".

He made sure we knew how they operate, where they were, that they were loaded and chambered and that all we had to do was set the safety to hot and pull the trigger, but if we did, we had better be ready to take a person's life.

We never went looking because we knew where they were.

We never played with them because we handled them often.

He had a way of making it like a coffee maker for us kids. Kids don't care about coffee. We know it's there. We just don't use it.

Just my opinion here, but if you hide it, they will seek it. But that could just be how I was raised. I know my friends growing up didn't get to learn like my brother and I did, and I know they went looking quite often, and occasionally found them without their parents knowledge.

I don't think teaching them is enough alone, and I don't think trusting them is enough alone. It's gotta be both. I've taught my girl and trust my girl enough to know that although it may seem out of her reach, in a S.H.T.F. scenario, she knows what condition 1 is and she can get to them and she's well aware of their operation.
 
#27 ·
Old school gun safety wasn't a safe, it was safe handling and parent supervision taught from a young age. Never had a safe until the grandkids came along, my kids were trained from the age they could hold one and aim. It's a shame our schools no longer have gun safety and shooting sports as I did growing up. Shooting a 22lr at the school range is a thing of the past. 50 years past.
 
#30 ·
I can carry DA DS one in the chamber no problem, I can carry 1911 and 1911 type 1 cocked and locked no problem. But striker fire with one in the chamber, other than .22 for target / range work get me to the point I don't carry them. I want to see a hammer and some safeties, I haven't learned an I old school or new school?I want to have several parts be in order before it bangs. I'm not crazy about a pistol that fired simply having the trigger pulled. On the 1911 everything has to be completed in order for it to fire, but doing everything becomes muscle memory. So I'm fluid getting a round out of my 1911 only using one hand with all four safeties working as they always do. Like I said I have striker fired .22 but there only for target shooting or maybe a squirrel every now and then. Bottom line if it takes two hands to get to to bang you can bet I don't have one. I just see the possibility of getting something snagged in the strikers. All this and I'm still a big wheel gun type, So wheel or 1911
 
#31 ·
I can carry DA DS one in the chamber no problem, I can carry 1911 and 1911 type 1 cocked and locked no problem. But striker fire with one in the chamber, other than .22 for target / range work get me to the point I don't carry them. I want to see a hammer and some safeties, I haven't learned an I old school or new school?I want to have several parts be in order before it bangs. I'm not crazy about a pistol that fired simply having the trigger pulled. On the 1911 everything has to be completed in order for it to fire, but doing everything becomes muscle memory. So I'm fluid getting a round out of my 1911 only using one hand with all four safeties working as they always do. Like I said I have striker fired .22 but there only for target shooting or maybe a squirrel every now and then. Bottom line if it takes two hands to get to to bang you can bet I don't have one. I just see the possibility of getting something snagged in the strikers. All this and I'm still a big wheel gun type, So wheel or 1911
 
#32 ·
I live in in MN at the ND border. It is not a densely populated area. Yet I know of two instances where families I had met several times lost a son because their two sons opened the gun safe while the parents were shopping and a gun accidentally fired. It is a very sad thing. Making it even worse, in both cases the police tried to prosecute the surviving son. These boys were between 9 and 13 years old and were taught to handle every gun as if it was loaded.
I can also remember back to when I was six and would once in a while sneak into my father's dresser and get out his chrome plated, pearl handled revolver and another gun. I would pull the hammer back and dry fire the "Lone Ranger's gun" but I couldn't manage to pull the hammer back on the funny looking pistol. My parents must have found out because one day the guns disappeared.
Kids are smart and kids are sneaky. They will find out where the key to the safe is. If they know a little about guns they will take the clip out and assume that the gun is unloaded. One of the boy's thought the shotgun wasn't loaded so it was all right to pump it and pull the trigger. My Kimber is locked and loaded. If it isn't under my direct control, it is locked up, the clip is out and the chamber is empty. In an emergency, if I have time to unlock the safe, I'll have plenty of time insert a clip and press the slide release. Don't ever assume when it comes to kids and firearms. Teach them about the guns. Let them shoot whenever they want and store them unloaded.
 
#33 ·
I do not believe in guns accidently going off. They are being mishandled by someone if it fires when you do not want it to. I do not know the details of those boys and the shooting but just from what you said those buys did two things wrong from the jump first they opened the safe without adult supervision. two obviously handled a gun and pointed it in an unsafe direction. Young boys and girls of that age should not be handling firearms without adult supervision.
 
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