LEOs, SROs, School security...my rant. I've had enough - Kimber Forum


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Old 02-24-2018, 01:20 PM   #1
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LEOs, SROs, School security...my rant. I've had enough

With the events of recent days I have stayed fairly quiet. A couple of former SWAT partners were over getting some gun work done and we discussed the state of law enforcement.

Some comparisons....
Even many social activists have some respect for members of the military despite hatred of cops. probably 90% of all military personnel exist to support the 10% that fight. MIL guys publicly keep the flock together without separation of MOSs etc.

Cops do the same. There is a need for "nerds" everywhere but the public perception that all soldiers and cops are the same is wrong. And we in those professions are to some degree to blame for this belief.

Not everyone joins the local PD or the MIL to fight. In fact they try to avoid it. I will take some heat here but let me try to pull the curtain back on at least my experiences in LE in one of the top 5 metro areas of the US.

When I applied some deputies I know asked why I wanted to be a cop. I told them and they said my interview with the old Chief Deputy would be short and tell him the same thing. Today you would never get hired saying you like to drive fast, shoot guns and want to put assholes in jail.

The public wants social workers with badges. They want de-esculation though it is unsafe for you do so when force is needed and justified. More cops get injured or killed now due to these policies. The failure to use enough force faster is what gets suspects and cops hurt.

The public loves the Special Ops guys with an aggressive behavior hitting targets and killing bad guys in other lands. They cry excessive force when a cop kills some a-hole in their town that needs killing.

Problems with the application arise when you have a civil conversation with a fellow citizen one minute and has to shoot him minutes later. An issue MIL guys do not have. They can de-humanize their enemy. Police admin of today cringe when you train the new guys to "be professional, courteous and smile but have a plan to kill everyone you meet".

Many join law enforcement for a good secure job with a retirement plan, health benefits, educational tuition re-imbursement plans (that have nothing to do with their job as a cop) and what they believe to a status position.

They are not competition oriented, controlled aggression, action type people. (I had a scholarship to be an aeronautical engineer but enlisted after a year of boredom and learned I would be a desk jockey. When Regan bombed Tripoli (I was born there when the US had a military base there) I dropped out and wanted to be a paratrooper).

Some may really want to help the community. I get it but they are not violent type people, despite entering a profession that may require violence at a lethal level.

All cops are not equal...

I have many times responded to violent in progress calls in the beats of others who went out of their way to ensure they were the 4 or 5 guy to arrive and the scene was "Code 4".

Many are lucky enough to not be challenged in field training and complete their probationary period with no "scary moment". Once they make probation, the system now makes it hard to fire them. Gone are the "cowardice" clauses in department policy.

Have an opening in the computer crime unit or School Resource Officer jobs and many apply to test. K9 and SWAT? not so much. If very few in the MIL test for Delta Force and few still make it, then you understand. I am not saying K9 and SWAT are equal to our nations finest warriors, the comparison is night and day. But the mindsets are similar.

So I hear we should put retired cops and former/retired military guys in schools to protect kids. Few MIL guys are mentally equipped and trained for this role. Few are trigger pullers. And as seen in Florida this week, few cops are up for the task too.

Here is the SRO (School Resource Officer) job description from my former department's website:

School Resource Officers
The Chandler Police Department utilizes School Resource Officers (SROs) at middle, junior high and high schools that are located in the city limits, covering three separate school districts: Chandler Unified, Kyrene Unified and Mesa Public Schools. These officers work with school administrators and educators year-round, supplementing and enhancing the Law-Related Education (LRE) component of the SRO program, as well as continuously evaluating the safety plan for each school.

All Chandler SROs are members of the Arizona School Resource Officers Association (ASROA) and the National School Resource Officers Association (NASRO), both of which provide training and networking among other SROs from across the state and nation. The Chandler Police Department’s SRO program has been recognized as a “Model School Resource Officer Agency” by the National Association of School Resource Officers.

The responsibilities of the SROs include acting:

As a visible, law enforcement figure on campus dealing with any law-related issues that occur;
As a classroom resource for instruction in law-related education;
As a member of the faculty and administrative team working hand in hand to solve problems in the school community;
As a resource for the students which will enable them to be associated with a police officer in a positive manner in their environment;
As a resource to teachers, parents, and students for conferences on an individual basis dealing with individual problems or concerns;
As a counseling/referral resource in areas which may affect the educational environment in a law-related nature; and
As a liaison to assist with crisis intervention and emergency management planning.
The SRO utilizes both proactive and reactive community policing methods in dealing with educational institutions. Several of Chandler’s SROs participate in extra-curricular activities at their schools such as clubs and coaching athletic teams. This enables the SRO to foster positive relationships with both students and staff in order to change the way the public looks at the law enforcement community.

School Resource Officers are also responsible for the facilitation of the Youth Academy and the Wilderness Youth Experience.

SROs act a substitute teachers at times. They develop courses such as "Girl Power" for self esteem and "no means no" and other BS. Did you see anything stating that their number one priority was to foot patrol that campus to confront and challenge those that do not belong? They are to maintain a proficiency with their weapons and tactics to aggressively deal with threats? They are to protect children against violence acts?...NO!!!

SROs are merely the public relations arm of the PD to try to foster a positive image of police officers in the upcoming generations. They often are not on campus because they are doing truancy checks at students homes or followup investigations on petty crimes that started on school grounds.

SROs tend to be officers who avoid in service training. Want day shift and weekends off. Like to coach kids soccer. Want summers off (well not off but they spend summers are bullshit educational conferences with teachers and other SROs. They are not placed on the street with Gang Unit cops in the area of the city their school is in, where they could actually do some good since they know the kids!).

Concealed carry is good for a last resort defense for the teacher. If properly trained and mindset I can agree. But how much regular training will it take to get a teacher to kill a kid they know? Most CCW classes teach legal justification, safe handling and a basic accuracy test. Not gunfighting...

The cops you want in your kid's school are the ones that Police command staff of today hate. Yes hate. Maybe respect, but don't like to have around. Admin hates SWAT. They acknowledge it as a needed evil. They tolerate the team but see them as a threat to their leadership. The politician chiefs of today throw their officers under bus at a moments notice to avoid a bad press conference. They fail to recognize the silent majority of the community does not care if an asshole gets killed. Instead, they play to the family to complains when "Little Johnny is caught being exactly what they at home created".

These guys are Alpha males, action oriented that do not start fights but look forward to them. These are the guys that drive home at the end of most shifts upset that nothing bad happened. These are the guys that spend days off in the local MMA gym and the range or USPSA match. The guys that buy an AK47 just to learn how to use one since it is the weapon of many of bad guys. The guys who trained and spent much time blood and money of their own training for the moment. And when they retire and were never in a gunfight are pissed because they never got to see how they would perform.

Basic training will get nearly all officers to draw and shoot when the fight is in their face. The suspect that gets out and draws on a BS traffic stop. When cornered, a weak dog will go into defense drive and fight.

But when dispatched to a call with shots being fired inside a house and it takes special man or a lot of inoculation training to expect that he will make entry alone. Like with Volhards dog test, two can get the same score but only additional challenges will determine if the dog is man fighter or just acting in defense.

Fear and Courage are both contagious. One man with a weak mind or bad training will follow another out of fear of being shamed by the pack.

So I was not shocked when the lone SRO in Florida stood outside alone. But when I heard of a group of officers just standing by I was angered. I have seen officers freeze. But I have not seen one fail to follow when a leader arrives on scene.

My department was well above most in the area of minimum mandatory training. 40 hours a year and a few range days. about 1200 rounds a year. SWAT and special units more of course.

Most agencies shoot a qualification course once a year and call it good. The other training is BS "Civility, hostile workplace environments, sexual harassment and new policies".

You expect warriors on the rare occasion it is needed but are not making your city councils provide the funding and time to train warriors.

The military spends 90% of time training for 10% of deployment time. LEOs are deployed 95+% of the time and trained little. But you expect perfection. Will not happen. Get involved.

I have heard on many many occasions by higher ups when challenged on their decisions (lack of personnel at an event, failure to call SWAT etc), that "I've always been lucky". Or when told they ran operation in a reckless manner that "it turned out well" or "no one died".


This thought process is like cancer in your local PDs. These leaders cross their fingers each day and hope to get to retirement without something bad happening on their watch. Most rank and file are no different.

They drink too much, fail to workout, fail to train and shoot on their time and dime. They literally are playing the odds with their lives and lives of others that they will make it to retirement without ever being challenged....because most make it.

SROs are not a to be a resource to the school, for the school to use and abuse...but they are. They should be considered Campus Protection Officers. Their only duty is to walk the campus with a rifle on their chest. No other duties but to train to protect others and be protecting others.

The parents do not want that...it is scary... Concealed carry on campus by personnel whose job is to protect is bullshit. The main purpose is to be an aggressive visible deterrence.

Time for parents to wake up to the realities of the world and de-sensitize their kids to violence and weapons present to protect them. They do not want security till their kids are killed then blame others for not doing what they resisted in the first place.

The kids are the victims and pawns. If it was a bunch adult "snowflakes" getting killed i would say "F*** them" they got what they deserved. My days of empathy were gone long ago for stupid people.

This is about kids....
Yea. Keep telling yourself that split times donít matter.

Last edited by Mike240; 02-24-2018 at 01:23 PM.
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Old 02-24-2018, 01:44 PM   #2
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...oh well, that's fine, but c'mon tell us how you really feel :-)
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Old 02-24-2018, 01:46 PM   #3
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is there an abridged version?
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Old 02-24-2018, 01:49 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Shootinit View Post
is there an abridged version?
I wish. But what goes on behind the blue curtain is not a short story. And that was written with angry strikes to each key. Sorry for errors. I am disgusted with my former profession at this moment.
Yea. Keep telling yourself that split times donít matter.

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Old 02-24-2018, 01:58 PM   #5
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Mike, you seem a bit conflicted ?

BTW, thank you for taking the time to write this out, and, oh yeah, thanks for your service.
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Old 02-24-2018, 01:58 PM   #6
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Excellent read Mike.
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Old 02-24-2018, 01:58 PM   #7
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Hey, I think it's a great post. Was wondering where you'd been, glad you chimed in. I remember being told as a kid "Barney Miller" was the most authentic police show on TV at the time :-) As outsiders I don't think most of us can really understand?
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Old 02-24-2018, 02:05 PM   #8
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Worked for 13 years in a medium-size city PD as a non-sworn employee. My job was gun crime analyst. We had, and still have, some really great folks.

In that experience, once they get above Cpt., they really are nothing but politicians. Of course, it doesn't help that the chief serves at the pleasure of the city politicians, who are all assholes, at least in Durham.

It is what it is; get used to it.
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Old 02-24-2018, 02:08 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by cousinmark View Post
Hey, I think it's a great post. Was wondering where you'd been, glad you chimed in. I remember being told as a kid "Barney Miller" was the most authentic police show on TV at the time :-) As outsiders I don't think most of us can really understand?
I wouldn't understand your workplace either. Other retired cops here will hopefully chime in.

LE is a machine that does require different types for all the jobs. I was not cut out for investigations, or traffic. But each are needed. I hate it when people are put in or left in units they are not suited for.

I entered thinking it was a "brotherhood". I found it to be like anywhere else. Cliques of like minded people with different goals and priorities.

I didn't like OT whores who were lazy, those that hid from work, ran from danger etc.

I saw change when education requirements were established for each promotion. Promotional policies that allowed someone to go from officer, sergeant, lieutenant and commander in 5 years. People who could do a year on the street and 19 or more in a non enforcement assignment like Crime Prevention Officer etc.

I respected great detectives and know many. Most can stay in their lane as I have.
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Old 02-24-2018, 02:20 PM   #10
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One of the things that I think gets overblown is that a teacher needs to be some type of highly trained high-speed low-drag operator to supplement school security.

If all a teacher did was get the kids properly situated in the classroom then cover the door with a handgun... that's a million times better than just cowering under a desk unarmed waiting for an active shooter to breech the classroom.

Overthink is the enemy to a call of action.

In any event, I think Mike240 makes a good point about the actual job expectations in law enforcement. I'm curious about Broward County Sheriff's active shooter protocols. Is it to wait until the shooting stops before entering the school? The Sheriff acted stunned that the officer took no action while the active shooter was slaying children. Was that just BS?

I hope the shooting stops soon, I'm getting hungry.

Last edited by ChattanoogaPhil; 02-25-2018 at 02:15 AM.
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