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Old 10-12-2015, 05:08 AM   #1
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9/11 Response

To this day, I still remember where I was and what I was doing when this infamous act happened.

I had gotten off work (10pm-7am) and had just finished taking a shower and noticed a message on the answering machine. My then wife had called and was very upset and said we had been attacked. My first thoughts was some mass shooter had cut loose on the Air Force Base where she worked.

I turn on the TV and of course it is all over the news, showing clips of the plane hitting the first tower....then the second plane hit and I knew this was a coordinated attack. I did not sleep for days afterward...I wanted to go to war against the people responsible.

Being as we had Bush as the president at the time, all I could think is that all hell was going to break loose and this just might turn into a world at war scenario. Just think the last time someone had the audacity to attack us where we live...the tiger awoke and played hell in the world to put down the perpetrators.

With the intelligence assets we have, we quickly discovered who was responsible and have known of the terrorist training camps in Afghanistan and other corners of the world. I was really hoping that Bush would give a 24 hour ultimatum to the respective governments to turn over the leaders, close down the camps and execute/disband said groups or face the wrath of this country.

My thoughts were to use the 24 hours to steam our naval assets to appropriate points on the globe, arm them with tactical nuclear armed cruise missiles and set targeting.

Then at the end of the grace period, go to the UN, tell them what is happening in the next half hour and that unless they live within X number of miles of a targeted camp, they are in no danger. But, again tell the governments who were supporting/hiding these people to either turn them over or face appropriate action by our country as we are in a state of war with those that would do this heinous act.

So, question is do you think this would be overkill? What do you think the world's reaction would have been? Do you think we would have sent a very clear message to those who would do us harm that we will annihilate them?

I ask this because I was talking with a recent war vet and he thinks we could not respond this way. I think we could have and save a lot of our young military vets a lot of pain and suffering, not to mention a lot of debt assumed to finance the last 14 years of combat.

This thought process kinda comes about from having grown up in some pretty bad neighborhoods and being jumped more than once by multiple attackers. Of course, their misbehavior was always rewarded eventually as I caught them one by one and gave it back twice as hard. Found that gave me a reputation that resulted in peace in my life where ever I walked afterward, those folks would leave me alone...even when they weren't the ones who got had. Seems to me that predators don't like to be prey.
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Old 10-12-2015, 09:49 PM   #2
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Yes. I think it would be overkill. The rest of the world would have universally condemned America if we, again, used nuclear weapons in anger, and not in self-defense.



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Old 10-13-2015, 10:55 PM   #3
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Angry War Is Hell!

Since the United States is pretty much universally despised, world opinion of our actions should really not be a factor in our reaction to attacks on Americans or American interests abroad.

As for our reaction to the September 11, 2001 attack on the United States, I feel that we went about it in the wrong way. If American troops are to be employed in response to an attack on the United States, it's citizens, it's financial interests or American property, then we should declare war on the aggressor and employ ALL military assets (up to and including tactical nukes) to defeat the enemy. The response should be swift, massive, merciless and unending, just like during World War II. The response should be an all out assault on the country in question. Their government would have the one and only power to stop the attack: total and complete unconditional surrender!

Stop sending our troops to fight police actions, peacekeeping missions, insurgent or limited wars. War is a terrible thing and if it is to be resorted to, it should make the "Shock and Awe" of Desert Storm look like a cheap fireworks display!!! The President of the United States, after receiving a declaration of war from Congress, should then order the military to destroy the aggressor that attacked the United States. He should leave the military action to the military high command to plan and carry out. He should be notified when the enemy has been destroyed or has unconditionally surrendered.

The Taliban, insurgents and terrorists my son's squad captured during search and capture missions in Iraq have mostly been released. The same for those he captured in Afghanistan. In addition, the Afghan troops and police that he helped arm and train, when confronted for the first time by Taliban fighters and insurgents not only did not fight, they dropped their arms, removed their uniforms, donned civilian clothes and ran away!! In other words, my son risked his life for two damn years in those two hell holes to achieve absolutely NOTHING!!

Mr. President, if you have no plan to win, do not engage U.S. troops!! If you do deploy troops, don't tie their hands. Let them do what they have been trained to do. The sole useful action performed by my son's squad in Iraq and Afghanistan was to keep each other alive!!! That was what they were fighting for......each other!! As Stephen E. Ambrose described it in his book...A Band of Brothers!!! Different war, but the idea is the same. Those guys will be my son's brothers until the day he dies.

While proud as hell of what my son did, I am appalled by the tragic loss of life with absolutely nothing gained!!!

RANT ENDED!!!
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Old 10-14-2015, 12:36 AM   #4
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Well, Lineman, I certainly understand your anger, but not your proposed strategy. Although the United States might be despised in some parts of the world, that is certainly not true everywhere. We still have a lot of allies, and the United States is still held in high esteem by a majority of the people of the world. Just look and see which country is the #1 choice for immigrants. It’s not Russia, and it’s not Iran.

World opinion of the United States is very important. We are part of a global community. We trade with countries all over the world. We rely on friends in the United Nations to support our policies. We depend on allies to build military coalitions like the ones currently operating in Syria and Afghanistan.

In our reaction to 9/11, we DID declare war on the aggressors. Have you forgotten the “War on Terrorism” that was declared by President George W. Bush? Who else would you have declared war on? Where would you drop your nukes? Al Qaeda was not, and is not, a sovereign nation. It is a terrorist group that was calling Afghanistan its headquarters, but which also operated (and still operates) in a number of other countries, including Pakistan. Drop a nuke on Pakistan, and it is likely that they would drop one right back on us. They are believed to have as many as 60-100 nuclear weapons. They are also a close ally of China, and a lesser ally of Russia. Drop a nuke on Pakistan, and we would be likely to get some back from China and Russia.

We successfully drove our enemies (the Taliban and al Qaeda) out of Afghanistan, and we did it without resorting to the use of nuclear weapons. They fled to Pakistan, a nuclear power, where they received safe haven, and still receive safe haven. Unless you want a long, bloody and costly war with Pakistan, we have limited options. Pakistan is considered to be our ally, even though it has a two-faced policy towards the United States. Besides, do you really believe that the American people, or the other peoples of the world, want to deal with radioactive fallout from a nuclear war, no matter how small it might be? Do you think that Russia, China and North Korea would stand idly by and let the United States use nuclear weapons in Asia, and not do anything about it?

World War II was a war between sovereign nations with defined borders, and with military fighters who wore identifiable uniforms. There is no comparison between a war on terrorists and a war on a sovereign nation. You say: “The response should be an all out assault on the country in question. Their government would have the one and only power to stop the attack: total and complete unconditional surrender!” Which country did you have in mind, exactly? What “government” are you talking about? Which country do you believe should have unconditionally surrendered? A terrorist group that moves around and hides in caves, or in allied countries, is difficult to fight. That’s why the war on terrorism is known as an asymmetrical war. Learn more about it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asymmetric_warfare

Who do you believe that Congress should declare war on? What country did you have in mind?

No. Your son did not risk his life for nothing. Al Qaeda has not been able to launch an attack on US soil for more than 14 years. Osama bin Laden is dead. Mullah Omar is dead. Afghanistan has free elections where women are allowed to vote. The country is slowly becoming self-sufficient. Has our presence in that country been a spectacular success? No. But neither was our incursion into Iraq. Read the Wiki article on asymmetric warfare. See just how difficult it is for a large, wealthy country with a professional military to fight a group of guerrilla fighters who wear no uniforms and can melt into the civilian population in seconds. Hell, the Taliban are using the very same tactics against the United States that our Revolutionaries used against the British in 1776. How did that work out for the Brits?

Hmm . . . The US President who committed ground troops into Afghanistan was George W. Bush. He did it in 2001 – long before President Obama was elected or took office. Are you suggesting that President Bush screwed up the war on terrorism? I know that a lot of liberals believe that, but history does not seem to support that criticism. Al Qaeda is no longer a direct threat to the US homeland.

If you study the history of warfare, you will learn that soldiers always fight, primarily, for each other and not for ideals or their countries. This is universally true, and it always has been.



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Old 10-14-2015, 11:04 PM   #5
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Wrong-o!!!

Sorry Richard, I choose not to engage in one of the pissing contests that you seem to relish so much. I have stated my opinions and you do not need to agree with me. You are free to have your opinions that I know will not change. So we will just leave it at that.

Hopefully, this will bring a smile to your face: Yes, Richard, the sky IS purple!! I bow to your incredible wisdom and concede that I was fully in error in believing that it is blue! YOU'RE THE WINNER!!!


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Last edited by Lineman; 10-15-2015 at 07:09 PM.
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Old 10-14-2015, 11:14 PM   #6
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Sorry, Lineman, that you believe that it is a pissing contest whenever somebody calls you on a clearly erroneous assertion. I asked some simple questions -- questions that you dodged nicely. What is it when you can't seem to state the issues factually, and then attack anybody who disagrees with you? I disagree with you. You have not responded to the issues, choosing, instead, to make our discussion into some kind of "contest."

Let me put it a little more bluntly: You are just plain wrong when you tell everybody that Congress should have declared war on some (unknown, unspecified) country, and that our military should have dropped nukes on a country on which we have not declared war. That's just crazy talk.



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Old 10-14-2015, 11:38 PM   #7
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The OP asked for opinions regarding our response to 9/11.
I gave exactly that, MY OPINION!!! You ATTACKED ME for my opinions. Not facts, my opinions.

I realize that in your mind, you can not be wrong. I have conceded that. I have not made this into a contest. Because a contest requires at least 2 participants. If you rummage around on the internet long enough, you can find "facts" to support any position on any subject. However, you can find nothing to refute my opinions. They are mine and mine alone! You can neither support nor refute them!

Have a nice day!!!
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Old 10-15-2015, 01:13 PM   #8
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Hmm . . . I try not to make personal attacks when discussing or debating any topic on any forum, and I wanted to be sure to apologize if I had, so I went back and looked at the entire thread. Here is a summary of what I see, post by post:

#1 The OP asks everybody if it would have been a mistake to use tactical nuclear weapons in response to 9/11.

#2 I responded that I thought it would have been a mistake. I opined that I thought America would have been universally condemned if it had used nuclear weapons in anger.

#3 You launched a rant (your word) that asserted that the United States is “universally despised.” You went on to say that “we should declare war on the aggressor and employ ALL military assets (up to and including tactical nukes) to defeat the enemy.” You advocated “an all out assault on the country in question.” You then said that the President should order the military to totally destroy the aggressor after receiving a Declaration of War from the Congress. You continued your rant by what appeared to be a direct challenge to the President of the United States to “if you have no plan to win, do not engage U.S. troops!!” It is not clear to which President this challenge is directed because it was President Bush who sent troops to Afghanistan, and not President Obama.

#4 I replied that I understood your anger, but not your proposed strategy for the United States. I pointed out that the United States and its people are still held in high esteem by a majority of the people of the world, and that we have a lot of friends and allies in the world.

I then pointed out that the United States DID, in fact, declare war on the aggressor: al Qaeda. We launched the War on Terrorism that continues to this day. I continued with a description of what would likely happen if we began to drop nuclear weapons on countries that harbored terrorists — countries like Pakistan, a country that has nuclear weapons of its own.

I asked you which specific country or countries you would have us declare war on, and I pointed out that terrorist groups were not sovereign countries like those involved in WWII. These are not my opinions. These are facts. They can be found in hundreds of thousands of books in addition to the Internet.

I then agreed with you and your son as to the reason why soldiers fight, and I pointed out that it has always been so.

I see no attack against you in my Post #4.

#5 You responded by accusing me of starting a “pissing contest.” This is an insulting way to characterize my attempt to provide factual information to the substance of the thread. You go on to add to the insult by sarcastically adding that you will “bow to [my] incredible wisdom” and concede that the sky is purple instead of blue. Then you said that I am the winner, as though this was some sort of juvenile contest instead of a reasoned discussion between adults about a very serious topic: The use of nuclear weapons.

#6 I pointed out that asking questions that remain unanswered is not a “pissing contest.” Apparently, however, you have chosen to make it one, so I became more blunt. If you wanted straight talk, I provided it. I told you that I thought you were wrong in your assertions. I opined that preaching the use of nukes on countries with which we do not have hostilities is “crazy talk,” and I stand by my words.

#7 You continue your attack in an indirect manner by implying that “facts” can be found by rummaging around on the Internet. Of course. Regardless of the source, a fact is still a fact. Never mind that any number of sources on and off the Internet will substantiate those facts as truthful, you are implying that whatever you pull out of your butt is somehow more believable than actual facts.

You are wrong, by the way, regarding whether I can support or refute your opinions. It is obvious that I can’t change them, but I have certainly refuted them in this thread, and I have supported them in other threads.

It is clear who began the personal attacks in this thread. It was you. I kept my posts focused on the issues that were raised by the OP, and by you in your first post. You chose to depart from the topic and begin launching a personal attack. Why haven’t you answered any of my questions? Do you believe that asking a question is somehow an attack? Whatever gave you that idea?



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Old 10-15-2015, 07:15 PM   #9
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Cool Still Right!!

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Mayhem is everywhere, but you're still right!!! Just ask you!!!
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Old 10-15-2015, 10:16 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by lineman73 View Post
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Mayhem is everywhere, but you're still right!!! Just ask you!!!
Isn't that a bit childish?



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