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Old 10-14-2015, 11:36 AM   #1
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Sometimes the Federal Government Helps

Today, two Milwaukee gun shops were found liable to pay $6 million in damages to police officers injured by guns they had sold. Gun shop found liable in shooting of two Milwaukee police officers - CBS News

In 2005, a law was passed granting immunity to those gun shops. It was a federal law: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/21/po...stry.html?_r=0

It appears likely that the monetary award will be overturned on appeal, and that the gun shops will not have to pay damages. If not for the federal law, every gun store and shop in America would be at risk, and would eventually be forced out of business.



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Old 10-14-2015, 12:21 PM   #2
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It will be over turned, that's a double edged sword they don't want to fall on. That would mean you could take a car dealer to court for selling a car someone was killed or injured in. Or Walmart's for selling the knife used in a crime.
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Old 10-14-2015, 12:33 PM   #3
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I thought the main point is they already had a bad rep and known for straw type purchases.... Some of their guns were used in crimes in the past from what I heard. Unless I heard wrong this morning.


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Old 10-14-2015, 01:29 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Albert.Cairns View Post
It will be over turned, that's a double edged sword they don't want to fall on. That would mean you could take a car dealer to court for selling a car someone was killed or injured in. Or Walmart's for selling the knife used in a crime.
Yes, but the point is, a judge in Wisconsin allowed the suit to move forward in spite of the federal law. Conservatives have a quandary. They constantly advocate "states' rights" against the federal government, but this time it is the federal government that is trying to protect gun owners and dealers. If the states have the right to ignore this federal law, then this is the first step towards a ban on guns.

For a similar case, look at the recent FCC ruling in Chattanooga, Tennessee. There, the state of Tennessee is claiming that the Federal Government has no right to overturn a state law that protects big telecom companies from competition by a municipal high speed internet services provider (ISP). Republicans and other conservatives are going to have to choose. Both cases could wind up at the Supreme Court, and however they rule, somebody will be upset. Either the states have the right to inhibit our freedoms, or they don't.



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Old 10-14-2015, 01:37 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by bhunted View Post
I thought the main point is they already had a bad rep and known for straw type purchases.... Some of their guns were used in crimes in the past from what I heard. Unless I heard wrong this morning.
A "bad rep" is hearsay, at best. If I go to my local gun shop and make a "straw" purchase with the intent of reselling a gun to an ineligible third party, how is the gun shop supposed to know that? If I am eligible to make the purchase, if I pass the background check, and if I pay for the firearm in full, then there is nothing to prevent me from subsequently reselling the gun to a criminal, and there is no way the gun shop might know about it. Straw purchases are already illegal, but liberals want to pass new laws making them illegal. It makes no sense, and the gun shops have broken no laws. Making gun shops liable for straw purchases will, ultimately, lead to the closure of every gun shop in America. They are being attacked because they are an easy, visible, target.

If you are a big enough retailer of handguns, it is inevitable that, sooner or later, one of the guns you have sold will be used in a crime. Isn't that so?



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Old 10-14-2015, 02:25 PM   #6
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If the actions reported in this story are true the sale should have been rejected. I have been in friends shops where less occurred and the straw sale was suspect and the folks to not so politely told to hit the bricks.

Changes to the responses on the 4473 is a sign....

I am all in for the 2nd Amendment. But to not hold profiteers accountable does not help our position with those who are still on the fence.

Surely you sell guns in a crime ridden shit hole of a city, many may end up at crime scenes. Many were likely stolen from lawful owners but they of course fail to report that.


http://m.jsonline.com/watchdog/watch...332166222.html
This story does not report all the issues the jury heard but if a employee saw what is reported the sale should have never happened. Unfortunately it ended in the shootings of people. To me it is not the straw sale which occurs all over without knowledge of the store. It is if they had reason to suspect but chose profit first. If a car dealer sold a car to an obvious drunk guy and let him drive off the lot and a fatal wreck occurred the same lawsuit would arise. It has here for bartenders who oversold and let drunks drive away.
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Old 10-14-2015, 05:33 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Mike240 View Post
If the actions reported in this story are true the sale should have been rejected. I have been in friends shops where less occurred and the straw sale was suspect and the folks to not so politely told to hit the bricks.

Changes to the responses on the 4473 is a sign....

I am all in for the 2nd Amendment. But to not hold profiteers accountable does not help our position with those who are still on the fence.

Surely you sell guns in a crime ridden shit hole of a city, many may end up at crime scenes. Many were likely stolen from lawful owners but they of course fail to report that.


Was sale routine or negligent? Badger Guns case reaches jury
This story does not report all the issues the jury heard but if a employee saw what is reported the sale should have never happened. Unfortunately it ended in the shootings of people. To me it is not the straw sale which occurs all over without knowledge of the store. It is if they had reason to suspect but chose profit first. If a car dealer sold a car to an obvious drunk guy and let him drive off the lot and a fatal wreck occurred the same lawsuit would arise. It has here for bartenders who oversold and let drunks drive away.
I had not read that story in its entirety, Mike, so I didn't know the details of the transaction.

Certainly the clerk should have been suspicious, but the law does not allow for discrimination based on suspicion. If the gun dealer had refused to make the transaction, could he have been sued? The law in this matter needs to be clarified by Congress, which has done its usual sloppy job of enacting laws.

If you approach me and try to buy a gun from me, I have every right to say "No." That is not true of stores that are open to the public. They put themselves at risk of a lawsuit if they make decisions based on suspicion. Congress could fix this if it really wanted to.

A gun dealer in Alaska was sued for the same reason. He won his case.

A better car analogy would be if the dealer heard a rumor that the potential buyer was a habitual drunk, but he had no proof, so he refused to sell him a car. I think such a dealer would get a lawsuit if he did that.



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Old 10-14-2015, 07:06 PM   #8
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My take on this is the gun shop had reasonable suspicion to believe a straw sale was taking place. The store is under no obligation to sell t anyone. If anyone would question that authority all they had to say was they were suspicious of a straw sale and no one would question them. As far as the sale, shame on them. Puts all stores in a sticky wicket for law suits because of a few bad apples as always.
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Old 10-14-2015, 08:04 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by jonh1373 View Post
My take on this is the gun shop had reasonable suspicion to believe a straw sale was taking place. The store is under no obligation to sell t anyone. If anyone would question that authority all they had to say was they were suspicious of a straw sale and no one would question them. As far as the sale, shame on them. Puts all stores in a sticky wicket for law suits because of a few bad apples as always.
You and Mike might, indeed, be correct. The problem is that there is something under US law called "precedent." The court in Milwaukee has set a precedent under the Common Law, and it will encourage other gun crime victims to sue other, innocent, gun shops. Even now, there are calls in the Congress to repeal the 2005 gun shop and gun manufacturer immunity law. If they are successful, you can expect a whole lot of them to go out of business, and for the price of guns to increase dramatically.

It happened to the manufacturers of small airplanes a number of years ago. Beech Aircraft has ceased to exist. Piper Aviation has been in and out of bankruptcy. Cessna production dropped precipitously. Up to 100,000 jobs were lost. The prices of small, General Aviation aircraft skyrocketed. Then, in 1994, the Congress passed, and President Clinton signed, the General Aviation Revitalization Act, and the industry began on the slow road to recovery. It will never be the same, however. Some models have ceased production forever. And all because of product liability lawsuits.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genera...talization_Act

The same thing would happen to the firearms industry if the immunity law of 2005 is repealed, overturned, or simply ignored by state courts.



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Old 10-14-2015, 09:41 PM   #10
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Dare I say it we need to elect a president who believes in the second amendment. We have a majority in the house and senate right now. Then we can we can have some rational thinking when it comes to gun ownership and registration.
I respect what Leo's have to endure on a daily basis just to do their job. I do not believe they should get a cash settlement for sustaining injuries while doing their duty as Police officers. I do believe the gun shop could be guilty of knowingly selling a gun or guns to straw buyers. If that were true then you take the gun
shops ffl. I do not believe a settlement is right because the same criminal could have purchased a hot firearms in a back ally somewhere just as easily. Still enabling him to do the shooting.
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