I just don't get the 4 layers of denim thing... - Kimber Forum

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Old 10-28-2015, 09:49 AM   #1
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I just don't get the 4 layers of denim thing...

...seems like a wife beater and a hoodie would be more accurate.
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Old 10-28-2015, 09:55 AM   #2
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Winter time up north may require more than a wife-beater and a hoodie. Penetration is key.
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Old 10-28-2015, 09:56 AM   #3
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Old 10-28-2015, 10:21 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by glokrok View Post
...seems like a wife beater and a hoodie would be more accurate.
Your definition of a wife beater and a hoodie must be different than mine.Here in So. Cal. a hoodie is worn by a lot of wanna be gang bangers and they probably beat up their women and rob liquor stores!
I have to ask what is your definition?
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Old 10-28-2015, 11:28 AM   #5
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I believe that the denim standard goes back to the LEAA tests right after the 1984 FBI shooting in Miami. They shot every round they could find through glass, sausage and cloth.

The cloth proved problematic. If a wad of cloth lodged in the hollowpoint of the day, it did not open up. It reacted like a solid, and kept penetrating.

Now, for the rest we need Richard. My 'knowledge' dates back to articles I read by Massad Ayoob in about 1990. No doubt, Richard has researched this.
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Old 10-28-2015, 12:16 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by swca View Post
Your definition of a wife beater and a hoodie must be different than mine.Here in So. Cal. a hoodie is worn by a lot of wanna be gang bangers and they probably beat up their women and rob liquor stores!
I have to ask what is your definition?
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Old 10-28-2015, 03:47 PM   #7
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I used to live in a winter climate 6 months a year and never wore 4 pairs of jeans at the same time-that would be just weird and tight.The most denim on the topside may have been 1 layer of a Wrangler jean jacket and a layer of thermals-oh and a flannel shirt-but I can see the theory of testing for expansion on heavy clothing.Of coarse most the time in that climate if attacked you push the offender down into a snowbank and thay cant get back up from all the clothes layer-then run-its what I used to do
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Old 10-28-2015, 03:51 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by The Tourist View Post
I believe that the denim standard goes back to the LEAA tests right after the 1984 FBI shooting in Miami. They shot every round they could find through glass, sausage and cloth.

The cloth proved problematic. If a wad of cloth lodged in the hollowpoint of the day, it did not open up. It reacted like a solid, and kept penetrating.

Now, for the rest we need Richard. My 'knowledge' dates back to articles I read by Massad Ayoob in about 1990. No doubt, Richard has researched this.
Actually, Chico, I did research this. But so did some of the other members on this forum. If you search for the threads with the videos, you will see that denim poses a problem for hollow point bullets in that they clog up the opening and prevent the bullet from expanding. So does the gypsum in drywall, and other materials could do the same.

For this reason, I have decided to stop using hollow points and stick with 230 gr. hardball ammunition for my .45 ACPs.

Besides, it is the ammunition recommended by Kimber . . .



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Old 10-28-2015, 04:00 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by krunchnik View Post
I used to live in a winter climate 6 months a year and never wore 4 pairs of jeans at the same time-that would be just weird and tight.The most denim on the topside may have been 1 layer of a Wrangler jean jacket and a layer of thermals-oh and a flannel shirt-but I can see the theory of testing for expansion on heavy clothing.Of coarse most the time in that climate if attacked you push the offender down into a snowbank and thay cant get back up from all the clothes layer-then run-its what I used to do

I think the four layers comes from the fact that somebody could be struck right in the center seam of h is/her shirt. It is also possible that somebody could be wearing a denim jacket over a denim shirt. If the bullet were to strike at the seam where the buttons are located, the number of layers of denim would certainly be as many as four, and could even be more than that. In addition, this could be right over the sternum, so it might be difficult to cause a mortal wound at this location.

Remember that the fabric is doubled at the seams where shirts and jackets are secured, as with buttons. Then, they overlap, leading to at least four layers down the center of the chest. Check one of your own shirts to see what I mean.



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Old 10-28-2015, 04:25 PM   #10
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This may be or not be the thread Richard was referring to.....Some good info and videos either way..

https://www.kimbertalk.com/forums/amm...st-rounds.html

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