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Never towed 10k pounds, nor do the overwhelming majority of people. Most of the guys I know who tow heavier loads are taking their boat to the lake or contractors towing equipment like their Bobcat to a local job site, not trekking across the US. EV fits perfectly, and I think well reflects the backlog of orders for the Ford Lightening. Those who want to tow a travel trailer on vacation should look elsewhere.

Battery life expectancy will vary, but with my driving I would expect to get at least 10 years. Battery capacity will degrade over time, typically 2.3% per year but that will vary with use. Buyers should figure that in when looking at the rated range of an EV.

What will batteries cost ten years from now? The cost of battery kWh has been plunging in recent years. I don't know what the future holds but I do know that I'm currently paying 24 cents per mile for gas. Electricity would be about a nickel. 100k miles... $24,000 in gas vs $5,000 electricity. We won't bother to mention the lower maintenance cost of EV vs ICE.

Excerpt:

According to Bloomberg New Energy Finance's annual battery survey, annual battery pack prices dropped some 6 percent from 2020 to 2021. Back in 2010, lithium-ion battery pack prices averaged $1,200 per kWh. Today, they're down 89 percent, to an average of just $132 per kWh. Just a year ago, pack prices were at $140 per kWh.

The pack prices were averaged from several different uses, such as passenger electric cars, buses, and battery storage projects. If we isolate just EV battery packs, the price per kWh comes in at $118. Moreover, breaking it down to the cell level puts the average price at just $97 per kWh.
 

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"Those who want to tow a travel trailer on vacation should look elsewhere."

Add in anyone who does actual work or transport goods.

For the overwhelming majority of people who grow and transport you food, goods, ammo, build your houses, supply your stores, service your life in general, the limitations of electric cars and trucks mean they arent an option.

EVs are a luxury toy at best.

Since EVs are a better alternative than ICE, what color is your Tesla Phil?
 
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In regard to EV's, has anyone researched what is involved to dispose of dead/old EV batteries?
With all the green movement, I know these dead batts don't go into the landfill, so what does a consumer pay to get rid of them? Where?
It costs a fortune for a new one, and I'd imagine it's not painless to dispose of dead ones, especially now with "green" being the key word now.
Anyone?
 

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United Parcel Service has already ordered 10,000 EVs from Arrival. Amazon announced a 100,000 EV order from Rivian. Walmart ordered 5,000 EVs from Brightand and FedEx has a large order too and has already taken delivery of many.

Kenworth and Toyota recently unveiled the T680E. It's rated for 82,000lb gross vehicle weight, and is equipped with 536 hp continuous power and up to 670 hp peak power and 1,623 lb.-ft. of torque and has a top speed of 65 mph. It's designed for pickup and delivery applications, regional hauling and is also available as a day cab tractor or straight truck. This is in addition to Kenworth's K270E and K370E that are already being delivered to buyers (bottom pic).

The above is just a small glimpse into what's occurring in the EV market.

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Wheel Automotive parking light Tire Sky Vehicle
 

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Add in anyone who does actual work or transport goods.
EVs are a luxury toy at best.
My job involves researching this stuff.

A growing number of companies that do "actual work" and transport people or goods are opting for EVs and the numbers are growing. ALL of the major truck manufacturers (Classes 6-8) are now marketing electric versions - and people are buying.

They're not buying because of government subsidies or attempts to go green - they're buying because EVs have a lower total cost of ownership for local and regional applications. Those costs include vehicle acquisition, charger installation and battery replacement.

The number of applications where EVs won't work - yet - is still large. Long range over-the-road trucking will be one of the last adopters of EVs, but every improvement in charging time, range, power, etc. makes EVs attractive for more applications.

The naysayers in the early 1900s said the automobile would never replace the horse. Gasoline was sold at drug stores while grass grew everywhere and was free. A lot of folks today sound about the same.
 

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In regard to EV's, has anyone researched what is involved to dispose of dead/old EV batteries?
With all the green movement, I know these dead batts don't go into the landfill, so what does a consumer pay to get rid of them? Where?
It costs a fortune for a new one, and I'd imagine it's not painless to dispose of dead ones, especially now with "green" being the key word now.
Anyone?
EV battery recycling and repurposing is in it's infancy. There's lots of ways of doing it, and the best ways we probably don't know yet.

Here's a pretty well balanced general article on the challenges and opportunities, speculating on the future.


Here's a startup company with a new and unique approach.

 

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This is at best an applaudible, naive approch.
I used to applaud those that take the financial risk to help forward a NEW IDEA.

I've bought into electric battery powered everything. Chainsaws, drills, lights, utv carts...and they are all useful toys at best!

40 years ago SOLAR POWER was going to "Save the World!"

20 years ago, WIND POWER was going to "Save the World..."

Cheap Chinese batteries will "Sa..."

Until there is an ecologically sound way to store electricity long term, it's all crap!

In my State, they charge a fee on new tires/batteies for the disposale of old tires. It will stop huge tire/battery dumps. No it doesn't.
Natural environment Ash Pollution Lava Fissure vent


Corrupt people steal the money and tire fires still happen!

Corrupt people currently take all kinds of subsidies for energy ideas/experimentation.

Please stop buying into expensive, impractical BS and look for practical responsible solutions.

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Battery technology advances will continue to make them easier to recycle and capitalism will do the rest. Battery "disposal" won't be an issue.
What advances in battery tech?
Graphene?
That's still decades away.

Lithium Ion is the top of the available battery tech food chain, and is what currently powers all EVs. You can't squeeze more power out of that technology, which is why we are researching graphene batteries.

Now, Graphene is the future, and can possibly solve alot of the problems, but we are a very long way from seeing it in the market.
Its still theoretical for the most part.

If you really did the research you should already know this.
(That's also an investment tip.) ;)

Lion powered trucks are a niche market.
Without heavy tax incentives and mandates, they wouldn't exist, and no one would even consider it.
My family owns several farms and we also grow, cut and transport timber.

There are no pull-through charging stations that can accomodate a semi, no infrastructure, and those EV trucks would die in the mud and swampy environment we work in.
They also arent user servicable.
EVs are just not currently not capable of handling the work load we do now, and even with tax incentives we would lose money.
Without a forced mandate, most companies won't switch to EVs.
Sure they can handle short deliveries from Amazon warehouses, and never stray from too far from the hub, or act as a grocery getter for city dwellers, but so can a golf cart.

What they can't do is haul 3 loads cut timber 100 miles to the mill, per truck, every day, or haul vegetables out of a field thats 20 miles from pavement, and 150 miles to the purchasing plant.

Thats before the environmental concerns related to the massive waste from Lion cells that are past their useable life, or the toxic waste from manufacturing.
 

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In regard to EV's, has anyone researched what is involved to dispose of dead/old EV batteries?
With all the green movement, I know these dead batts don't go into the landfill, so what does a consumer pay to get rid of them? Where?
It costs a fortune for a new one, and I'd imagine it's not painless to dispose of dead ones, especially now with "green" being the key word now.
Anyone?
Here's all I'm thinking Rick. These EVs are virtually silent!!! Not that the rats have much of a chance now, the thought of you being able employ a new level of stealth in your quest to dispatch of the vermin does make me wonder 😁
 

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My wife's new car is a Ford Escape SE Sport Hybrid, long name, but it drives great; it is quick to accelerate; and it gets 40 to 44 mpg.... ...put it in sport mode and your driving a really responsive car....
 

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United Parcel Service has already ordered 10,000 EVs from Arrival. Amazon announced a 100,000 EV order from Rivian. Walmart ordered 5,000 EVs from Brightand and FedEx has a large order too and has already taken delivery of many.

Kenworth and Toyota recently unveiled the T680E. It's rated for 82,000lb gross vehicle weight, and is equipped with 536 hp continuous power and up to 670 hp peak power and 1,623 lb.-ft. of torque and has a top speed of 65 mph. It's designed for pickup and delivery applications, regional hauling and is also available as a day cab tractor or straight truck. This is in addition to Kenworth's K270E and K370E that are already being delivered to buyers (bottom pic).

The above is just a small glimpse into what's occurring in the EV market.

View attachment 129289

View attachment 129290

What kind of tax "incentives" are they getting?
Because that is the only reason they are buying any of them.
That is also a tiny fraction of their fleets.
UPS has over 150,000 trucks.
How much of our tax money do they get for converting less than 7% of their fleet?
 

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UPS is a minority stakeholder in Arrival. UPS is involved in vehicle design as well as implementation of ADAS technology including automation. It's not just some politically correct scheme or tax break gimmick.

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Jan 20 2022

UPS is investing in electric vehicle maker Arrival and buying 10,000 of its EVs to add to the UPS fleet in North America and Europe.

UK-based Arrival and UPS are co-developing custom electric delivery vehicles with ADAS. Thanks to the carrier’s investment in the EV company, UPS gets early access and first-priority to purchase Arrival’s vehicles.

Arrival makes electric vehicle platforms and purpose-built EVs that the company says offer a financial value compared to both traditional internal combustion engines and existing EVs. The carrier’s venture capital arm, UPS Ventures, made the minority investment in Arrival.

The 10,000 EVs from Arrival, which would roll out over the next four years, would add to the already largest for-hire fleet. And UPS has “priority access” to purchase more purpose-built electric vehicles from Arrival, which is based in London.

UPS and Arrival plan to work together to develop EVs with advanced driver-assistance systems (ADAS). Along with the technology increasing safety and operating efficiencies, UPS is looking at the potential of automated movements by these EVs at UPS depots. The carrier plans to start testing ADAS features later this year.

Future UPS vehicle purchases from Arrival will be dependent on successful tests. But if successful, another 10,000 Arrival vehicles could be purchased later this decade. And as an investor in the EV-maker, UPS has the option to fast-track future orders.

Arrival has three small production facilities in the UK and one in New Jersey here in the U.S. Neither company disclosed the vehicle prices.

UPS rivals FedEx and Amazon have also been focusing on adding EVs to their fleets as the race for last-mile delivery in urban centers grows. Amazon plans to add up to 100,000 Rivian battery-electric delivery vans starting in 2021. FedEx and Ryder Systems teamed up over a year ago to add Chanje EVs to FedEx’s California fleet.

Arrival is the first OEM to provide custom-built delivery EVs for UPS — with a production strategy for global scale. Since 2016, UPS and Arrival have worked together to develop delivery vehicles concepts. The companies previously said they would develop a state-of-the-art pilot fleet of 35 electric delivery vehicles for pilot testing in London and Paris. The carrier is also pioneering new approach to electric charging and storage that has now been deployed in UPS’s central London facility.

“UPS continues to build an integrated fleet of electric vehicles, combined with innovative, large-scale fleet charging technology,” said Juan Perez, UPS chief information and engineering officer. “As megatrends like population growth, urban migration, and e-commerce continue to accelerate, we recognize the need to work with partners around the world to solve both road congestion and pollution challenges for our customers and the communities we serve. Electric vehicles form a cornerstone to our sustainable urban delivery strategies. Taking an active investment role in Arrival enables UPS to collaborate on the design and production of the world’s most advanced electric delivery vehicles.”

Arrival produces its own major core vehicle components — chassis, powertrain, body and electronic controls — as part of a modular design with standardized parts, which the company says reduces maintenance and other costs of ownership.

“UPS has been a strong strategic partner of Arrival’s, providing valuable insight into how electric delivery vans are used on the road and, importantly, how they can be completely optimized for drivers,” said Denis Sverdlov, Arrival chief executive. “Together, our teams have been working hard to create bespoke electric vehicles, based on our flexible skateboard platforms that meet the end-to-end needs of UPS from driving, loading/unloading and back-office operations. We are pleased that today’s investment and vehicle order creates even closer ties between our two companies.”

The partnership lines up with UPS’s strategy to deploy “cutting-edge technologies,” according to Carlton Rose, president of UPS Global Fleet Maintenance & Engineering. “These vehicles are the world’s most advanced package delivery vehicles, redefining industry standards for electric, connected and intelligent vehicle solutions.”



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So many misconceptions, so little time.

Lion powered trucks are a niche market.
Without heavy tax incentives and mandates, they wouldn't exist, and no one would even consider it.
Except, they are. And they're proving to be cheaper to operate, even without heavy tax incentives and mandates.

There are no pull-through charging stations that can accommodate a semi, no infrastructure, and those EV trucks would die in the mud and swampy environment we work in.
Except, there are. And they're building more. Today, most EV applications return to the same place daily. No pull through stations needed. They already have more power than the average ICE truck and an infinite number of gears.

They also arent user servicable.
They don't NEED as much user service. EV engines have far fewer working parts than ICE equipment and require way less in the way of lubricants, engine coolant, DEF, etc.

Sure they can handle short deliveries from Amazon warehouses, and never stray from too far from the hub, or act as a grocery getter for city dwellers, but so can a golf cart.
Golf carts can't handle 40,000 lb. payloads. ePeterbilts can.

What they can't do is haul 3 loads cut timber 100 miles to the mill, per truck, every day, or haul vegetables out of a field thats 20 miles from pavement, and 150 miles to the purchasing plant.
The aforementioned ePeterbilt that's already on the market can make that 100 mile timber trip and back. With a 1 1/2 hour DC quick charge it can do it again, and again, as many times as necessary. The charging time, for now, is inconvenient, but with a choice per trip of between $167 worth of diesel fuel per trip (200 miles, 6mpg, $5 per gallon) or $20 worth of electricity, EVs are looking better all the time.

There won't be a day when the world suddenly switches from diesel to electric. Some applications (ice road truckers?) won't ever go EV. But over the next 20 years, EVs will replace most ICEs, one vehicle at a time.

In the meantime, the DOE just released a study saying that by 2030, nearly HALF of the medium and heavy-duty trucks in the U.S. will be electric because they're cheaper to operate. The very next day, Biden's EPA issued new emissions rules for diesel engines requiring a FURTHER reduction of 90% in exhaust pollutants, ensuring they WON'T be cheaper to operate.
 

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So many misconceptions, so little time.



Except, they are. And they're proving to be cheaper to operate, even without heavy tax incentives and mandates.



Except, there are. And they're building more. Today, most EV applications return to the same place daily. No pull through stations needed. They already have more power than the average ICE truck and an infinite number of gears.



They don't NEED as much user service. EV engines have far fewer working parts than ICE equipment and require way less in the way of lubricants, engine coolant, DEF, etc.



Golf carts can't handle 40,000 lb. payloads. ePeterbilts can.



The aforementioned ePeterbilt that's already on the market can make that 100 mile timber trip and back. With a 1 1/2 hour DC quick charge it can do it again, and again, as many times as necessary. The charging time, for now, is inconvenient, but with a choice per trip of between $167 worth of diesel fuel per trip (200 miles, 6mpg, $5 per gallon) or $20 worth of electricity, EVs are looking better all the time.

There won't be a day when the world suddenly switches from diesel to electric. Some applications (ice road truckers?) won't ever go EV. But over the next 20 years, EVs will replace most ICEs, one vehicle at a time.

In the meantime, the DOE just released a study saying that by 2030, nearly HALF of the medium and heavy-duty trucks in the U.S. will be electric because they're cheaper to operate. The very next day, Biden's EPA issued new emissions rules for diesel engines requiring a FURTHER reduction of 90% in exhaust pollutants, ensuring they WON'T be cheaper to operate.
Joe Biden's anti American energy policies might ensure it.

Its all the same unicorn farts we were sold with Solar and wind farms 20 years ago.

This is another obvious money grab.
Lion is primitive tech.


However, guess who is the largest lithium producer in the world?
Tianqi Lithium in China
Biggest lithium mining company on the planet?
Jiangxi Ganfeng Lithium in China

Seeing a pattern?

I wonder which of our esteemed politicians have interests in either these companies or their holdings?
Same ones pushing EVs with mandates?
Nah..
Surely we can trust them to have altruistic motives, and would never sell the country out to our enemies for money. 🤣
 

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Quote
"The very next day, Biden's EPA issued new emissions rules for diesel engines requiring a FURTHER reduction of 90% in exhaust pollutants, ensuring they WON'T be cheaper to operate."
End quote

So, EV wins because BRANDON legislates death of fossil fuel trucks?

The joke continues...
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I have a Delivery Logistics story for you.

The Cali port has been backlogged because Cali DOT won't allow CA none compliant trucks, that run interstate to go there.

Keep legislating...
 

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The Cali port has been backlogged because Cali DOT won't allow CA none compliant trucks, that run interstate to go there.
That's one of the reasons. Stay tuned, because CARB has decreed that only zero-emissions vehicles will be allowed at the ports by 2035. Any containers destined for points too far from the port for EVs will have to dropped somewhere so an ICE vehicle can finish the trip.

Another reason for port backups is the steel to build rail chassis that transport containers by rail. After China was found guilty of unfair market practices, a 200% tariff was levied as punishment. Building of new chassis went to zero and there aren't enough of them to get the containers off the ports.

Then, there's the unions that run the ports who refused to allow expanded hours.

As for our illustrious government, there is no doubt they are delighted with high fuel prices and anything else that pushes the citizenry toward EVs. Whether the technology is ready doesn't really matter to them.
 

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The bottom lines are these. 1. We are NOT ready for full electric. We may never ever get there. Notjing generates the power to facilitate our current, let alone future electric needs, like oil and coal. 2. Initial costs are prohibitive. Future costs, even those associated with increased knowledge and better production, will NOT come down, but rather increase. Someone has to pay for that development. When was the last time you saw a price drop on a conventional, dino fueled engine, or vehicle? 3, We are and will continue to be stuck with the stupidity of rebuilding the wheel. Ford, Edison, Benz and many others, attempted electric vehicles more than 100 years ago. In all that time, we really haven't come all that far. BUT, now we have the government and their investors pushing the idea. It's that, "investors", word that ensures we are, indeed, stuck with rebuilding the wheel. 4. Look at nuclear power. 50 years ago, it was all the rage. Governments got behind it. Those same investors bought into it. They got what they wanted and the country is still trying to remove itself from fossil fuel. But not with nuclear! Now it's electric. Sorry. Can't be done. Not today. Maybe, in another 100 years, if the government and their investors don't steer us down another, not so rosey path, electric power development might be up to the task.
 
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Battery technology advances will continue to make them easier to recycle and capitalism will do the rest. Battery "disposal" won't be an issue.
It's ongoing. GM's new Ultium battery reportedly has 90% less wires than other battery packs, 25% lighter, smaller, less expensive to produce and easier to recycle. Of course being lighter and smaller translates to being able to put more battery in a vehicle. GM says they'll have a range of battery configuations for consumers to choose from 50 to 200 kWh.
 

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It's ongoing. GM's new Ultium battery reportedly has 90% less wires than other battery packs, 25% lighter, smaller, less expensive to produce and easier to recycle. Of course being lighter and smaller translates to being able to put more battery in a vehicle. GM says they'll have a range of battery configuations for consumers to choose from 50 to 200 kWh.






It's not all about range and performance, though. Price is key. Because battery packs are so expensive, legacy automakers continue to lose thousands of dollars on every EV they sell. Even Tesla's minuscule profits have mainly come from selling emissions credits to rival automakers, not from selling cars.

GM is confident that the Ultium program will drive cell costs below $100/kWh, long the holy grail of battery development, hastening the day when EVs achieve price parity with fossil-fueled cars. But that's still a ways off: Prices for Li-ion cells may have fallen by 87 percent since 2010, according to analysts at BloombergNEF, but remained a daunting $156/kWh in 2019.
lol.

It's a hustle.
 
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