[Freedom1]

Hi,

I have the Pro Crimson Carry II and my Wilson Combat 47D magazines loaded with 8 rounds used fit into it fine, until I retrieved my gun from a gun smith this week who installed Meprolight night sights onto it. Now, my factory 7-round magazine is fine, but my 8-round Wilson Combat magazines will not go in all the way. If I take a round out of them, leaving them with only 7 rounds in the magazine, then they (Wilson Combat 47D's) will go in all the way and lock into place.

I have field stripped the gun and while it is disassembled I can put the fully loaded 8-round clip into the handle and it locks into place. But when reassembled, the 8-round Wilson Combat is not able to go into the handle and lock into place.

I don't know what is wrong now.

Any suggestions, please?

Thanks

 

[Freedom1]

C'mon guys,

21+ views and nobody leaves even a comment? There must be some reason why an 8-round clip won't lock into the handle with 8 rounds in it. Is it possible the gun smith did something, perhaps, when he cleaned it after firing a few rounds through it, which might account for why the magazine loaded will not push up all the way and lock into the handle?

I guess I'll be making a return trip to see him.

 

[Freedom1]

Solved

So it turned out that the ammo needed to be tapped tightly into the backside of the clip, removing any protrudence at all. Then the magazine snapped into place okay. This had to be done on all of the 8-round magazines.

Reiterating - the rim of the round is now flush against the backside of the clip.

Some older man once told me that if rounds don't load properly into the chamber, tapping the magazine in the opposite manner so that the rounds are forward in the clip, protruding a little bit from the nose of the clip, helps the round to load easier into the chamber alleviating rounds that jam. Well, I won't have that option available to me on these 8-round magazines.

= = = = = = = = =
Not really solved

See next post

 

[Freedom1]

Went to the gun smith today who told me that these Wilson Combat 47d magazines, really should be used as 7-round magazines just like the original Kimber clip, unless one is shooting competition. In competition, you end up feeding the 8 rounds of the clip into an open slide so the 8 rounds feed with no problem. He also said that there is no compression left when "forcing" 8 rounds into the clip. He showed me that what is called an 8-round clip, is in fact really a 7-round clip.

I said, "What then is this extension"? He showed me that the extension, or bumper guard of the Wilson Combat 47d, really is not an extension. It is the same size as the Kimber 7-round magazine. You can actually put 8 rounds into the Kimber magazine or the 47d, but they will behave the same, and have the same issue as these Wilson Combat magazines when loaded with 8 rounds - they do not want to snap into place within the handle, which is not recommended. "The springs will go to hell," he told me.

So I then saw that the original Kimber and the Wilson Combat 47d are in fact the same size. Both of them may seem to hold 8 rounds, but should be used in everyday life as 7-round magazines.

If you are not going to immediately load one of the 8 into the chamber, it is not recommended to have 8 rounds in the clip.

 

[Harrison]

Coincidence?

Hello Freedom1...This is my first post on the site. ...Your post was very good and worthy of some responses. I have and still own several different semi-auto's including a couple of Kimbers which I've recently added to the list. I've heard the question about leaving a "full" mag in any semi-auto and if it affected the spring tension after a period of time and would also like some actual test feedback concerning the subject. Personally, I leave my carry gun as well as my "by the bed night-time gun" fully loaded all the time. I do however, empty the mags periodically just to verify things are in order. I question the memory possibility of some springs. I wonder what response we would get from Wilson Combat or Nighthawk Custom? Think I'll give them a call.
One other comment, I prefer the Wilson Combat mags over the Kimber, I have had the Kimbers jam slightly and for that reason, I'll not carry them again except for target use. I never had a problem with a Wilson mag.

 

[Sonofagun]

I had the same issues when all was new. The Wilson's are fine now after some use but the kimber pro tac issue never went away. I agree that the mags may perform better with only 7 rounds. But only movement will wear out the springs. You can keep mags loaded forever and it won't effect the springs. Using them continuously will. Like bending any piece of metal back and forth till it breaks.

 

[jDub]

FWIW... I had trouble with Wilson's 10mm for my Custom TLE II. Ended up getting some Chip McCormick Shooting Star's and they've been perfect. Hard to find, but I found a site with a stash recently.

 

[pope]

pope

I also use w/combat mags in pro carry II and find they work best when loaded to 7 rounds. If you do 8 chamber it right away or you may have trouble with function of the weapon when you need it

 

[Mike240]

I don't buy what your smith says. The Wilson 47D mag is the same body whether 7 or 8 rounder. They come with a variety of optional thickness base pads for those running magwells or wanting steel over polymer. The difference in capacity is done by using a convex follower on the 7 and concave for the 8. I have run these mags for over 30 years when the designer Rogers name was still on them. I still have my original ones that still get use and have never replaced a spring.

I refuse to use any mag that has the Devel style follower like Kimbers 8 rounders. Too many bad experiences by me others I have trained and work with. mcCormicks newer power mags are supposed to be better with that same Devel concept and a couple friends use them but why would I change from the Wilson follower after all this time?

I did buy some Wilson ETMs which have a longer body to make more room for compression of 8 rounds and a longer spring and they work fine. Same 8 round follower as the 47. Without a magguide they protrude somewhat and will not flush fit. But I find after awhile they rattle with 8 rounds in them and have to be rapped to settle them. At work noise discipline is an issue to me. The 47s never do such a thing.

The Metalform elites are also very good true 8 rounders with the best follower. We used to be able to by just the metal follower for cheap and would put them in other mags to prevent any nose diving of the round.

The 47 series mags have ruled competition for decades for single stack folks. If the issues listed existed they would have died out years ago.

 

[Freedom1]

Reality

What's not to buy? The magazines, both the original Kimber and the Wilson Combat 47d, when loaded with 8 rounds, do not fit into the handle of the gun without a lot of force. That's reality.

Repeating: The gun smith advised not loading the magazines with 8 rounds for the reason already stated. Also, forcing 8 rounds into the gun which is resisting, makes you think that what you are attempting is going to damage something in the gun.

What is your advice now?

 

[Mike240]

There was no advice offered just that I counter your smith on his knowledge and use of the mags. You began with there was no issues till you smith installed new sights, then issues with the same mags began. Then you state that you learned to seat the top round fully to the rear and the mag worked as before the sight install.

I was merely calling bs on what the smith stated who obviously is out of touch on the mag issue. I explained the difference in the 47 mags between 7 and 8 rounders. I mentioned how others do the 8 round conversion with the collapsing Devel style followers and my experiences with those.

There are those that shoot more than I but 1000-1500 rounds a month and leaving my mags loaded and not replacing the springs debunks his opinion. Everyone I know that carries a full size 1911 daily for work carries the 45 with 8 in the mag and one in the chamber. We have for years....

Mags should be inserted briskly and firmly. The mag has to overcome the mag catch lobe and when the top round contacts the loading rib of the slide (when slide is in battery) it will have to be forced down slightly since this contact is always there with a round in the mag. Less rounds, less spring pressure.

 

[Freedom1]

Your assessment of the past posts is partially incorrect. When I fit the rounds into the magazine, it seemed to work for an interim, but it was not satisfactory (my 3rd post).

But more importantly, it turns out that the company Kimber states on the details of this 1911, that the magazine has a capacity of 7 rounds.

What I thought were 8 rounds magazines from Wilson Combat (47d) had the same issue as already described. You can load 8 rounds into the magazine (even though Kimber states that theirs is a 7-round magazine), and upon closer examination, both the Kimber and Wilson Combat 47d are the same dimensions. I think, or thought, that the marketing on the Wilson Combat 47d was not genuine because though while you can actually get 8 rounds into the magazine, it does not fit into the handle of the gun.

Here is Kimber's status on the gun, stating on their website that it has a 7-round magazine capacity. This is the same gun and original magazine I have from them, for which I began this thread. See link:

Kimber America | Pro Crimson Carry II

So in your own situtation, and the guys you work with, if you are fitting 8 rounds into the magazines, are you working with the Kimber Pro Crimson Carry II, that I started this thread out with? If not, which Kimber are you using. It apparently matters.

I'd like to add, that the 47d has a concave plastic follower (the follower has a valley that you can set your finger or the round into) while the Kimber's follower is completely flat and metal.

 

[Mike240]

When you state the 8 round mag does not fit in the "handle" are you saying that it does not fit flush with the bottom the frame or that it does not insert fully and engage on the magazine catch?

If you want a flush fit mag then use 7 rounders with welded steel floorplates like the original Browning design. The only 8 round mags I know of that would flush fit used the Devel style "folding paddle" type follower. These I stated I do not trust from too many bad experiences and also in alloy framed guns with non ramped barrels could gouge the frames feed ramp.

These may be where we did not understand each other. If that fractions of an inch due to an 8 rd. mag not flush fitting makes a difference to you as in concealed carry, then carry one in the chamber and a 7 round mag in the gun with a proven 8 rounder as your spare.

I was reading that your 8 rounder would not seat and become engaged on the mag catch.

you are right that the 7 and 8 round Wilsons have the same tube body length in the 47s. the only difference is the follower. the 7 rounder does not flush fit either even with the thinest baseplate. This is typical of magazines that can be disassembled from the bottom.

In regards to what Kimber says about that gun and mag capacity it matters not. I have had over a dozen Kimbers. They are not consistent with the mag they send (although they should include three like other makers). I have received them with 7 and 8 rounders despite their advertising. the frrame length on the Pro models is the same as the Customs or any Government model.

I have two Pro models...a TLE and Super carry. Both run Wilson 47d mags (8 rounders) fine. My other 5 Kimbers are all 5 inch guns.

What I disputed was that it makes no since to carry an 8 round mag with 7 rounds in it. If loaded with one in the chamber and an 8 round full mag in the gun creates a stoppage after firing the first round, there is another issue that needs to be addressed.

Am I still missing the issue? Granted I work 12 hours graveyards shifts haha

 

[Freedom1]

When you state the 8 round mag does not fit in the "handle" are you saying that it does not fit flush with the bottom the frame or that it does not insert fully and engage on the magazine catch?

........

I was reading that your 8 rounder would not seat and become engaged on the mag catch.

You have far, far more knowledge about guns than I. I'm a newbie.

Like your first question above, my answer would be, "Don't both your questions mean the same thing?" lol

I guess what you thought I was speaking about, regarding the magazine catch, is not what I was talking about. I just recently started reading somethings about that topic.

My problem was in not being able to insert the magazine all the way so that its bottom was flush with the frame (your 1st question). I had the same problem with the Wilson Combat 47d, when these were filled with 8 rounds, though every so often I was able to get it to insert "flush". I never really understood what the problem was, and that's when I sent to the gun smith for his thoughts on the matter.

Regarding your other question about the magazine catch, that brings to mind another small issue I have noticed and maybe you can help me out:

When I push the magazine release button, with other guns I have found the magazines eject with force, like a spring was pushing them out. But in my Kimber now, when I push the button the magazine falls out due to its own weight. But I could have sworn that when I first got the gun that the magazine did eject with force. I wondered if after having cleaned it and reassembled it, something is now slightly amiss.

Do you have any thoughts on this matter?

 

[Mike240]

With the slide forward (in battery) the magazine will 'eject' with more force due to the fact that the magazine spring is more compressed due to the pressure of the 'loading lug' of the slide. This lug (it is called differently by others and by makers), when in battery is depressing the top round slightly and below the feed lips of the mag. It does the same to the follower but no to the same degree (and the type of follower can have an effect on the amount of pressure, ie. flat, convex or concave. This creates a load on the mag spring.

Due to this compression of the mag spring, the mag will come out with a bit more force. The amount of force will depend of the strength of the mag spring, the amount of rounds remaining in the mag (more rounds-more compression; but the amount of travel will be the same).

The other factors since you mentioned 'other' guns is that high capacity guns will have heavier/stronger mag springs due to the amount of load they carry to ensure the last round can get to the feed lips in time before the slide travels forward when firing. Shorter and lighter slide guns' slides will travel faster (in general) thus requiring even stronger mag springs to keep everything running in time.

With the slide locked open on an empty mag (as in last round fired), only slight spring pressure is exerted upward. This is the amount required for the follower to push upward on the lobe of the slide stop to catch the detent in the slide during recoil. In this case there is so slight an amount of pressure that when the mag release is depressed that mag is pretty much falling from gravity. This will be the same with all the guns regardless of capacity of the mag. The size and weight of the mag may make the mag seem to fall more quickly.

By holding the pistol perpendicular to the ground but upside down, you can compare and watch the amount of lift or the amount the mag 'ejects' from the frame with the conditions above and varying them (always be in a safe place, pointed in a safe direction and using dummy/inert rounds is better yet).

The goal is not to get the mag to 'eject' or launch from the mag well due to spring pressure. The goal of the mag spring is to lift all cartridges to the top of the mag, against the feed lips in time for the slide and with enough pressure to not dive back into the mag when struck by the loading lug prior to passing over the front of the mag body.

Too much mag spring pressure can create other problems.

 

[Freedom1]

The not ejecting with force is true when the magazine is full of rounds, and in battery position.

So let's say I would like to feel more force from the ejection. How does a gun smith, or knowledgeable owner, tinker with the gun or magazine to get this type of result?

 

[Mike240]

Basically you have what you have. The mag is not intended to 'eject'. What little "pop" out you get is just a by product of what the mag spring does to feed the rounds up the tube.

Now you can change the spring in the mag catch which will make it easier to depress. There are four weights available through Brownells. The lightest two I feel are to light for daily carry to avoid inadvertent mag releases but good for competition or those with weaker thumbs. The downside to them is that it makes it easier to overly depress the mag catch, allowing more travel into the magwell and the left side of the mag catch can trap the mag preventing it to drop free.

That can be corrected by cutting that side of the catch back more with a 1/4" round parallel file. At least that is needed on OEM kimber and SA catches. I ve had to do it with EBs too. The 10-8 models claim to no need relief cut but I have not installed one. I find the Kimber one to meet my needs with a little trimming when used with the lighter spring. I'll check and see if your email is available to me and send you a paper I wrote for our new armorers about springs in the 1911 that may help.

 

[Mike240]

Don't see it Freedom1. Send me an email, it's too big to PM

 

[Freedom1]

Thanks, but that's okay, Mike. I was just curious and your answer was sufficient. I have no intention of doing that kind of work. I just wondered what the answer was like, and you gave me one.

Thanks

 

[johncola36]

If its an 8 round magazine, you should be able to load it with 8 rounds. It will be more difficult if the slide is in battery. Even though the magazines are the same size, the fact that the 8 round mag is full with 8 rounds there is less room for the spring to move so I give it a shove with the butt plate. Do you have trouble getting it in with the slide locked open?