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Oh FFS Kimber, make us a damn 2011.
Speed kills.
Yeah...because .45 acp is fat and slow right?

Well, you can find literally hundreds of videos of criminals being shot multiple times with 9mm and .40, and they still advance on the officer.

Have you ever seen one where the bad guy gets popped with multiple .45acp, and they keep advancing?
🙂
I haven't.
 

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@bad ninja

True that 9mm FMJs can over-penetrate ... in and out. But that's manageable. The bullet type matters. The tiny .22 round into the skull is extremely effective. A lot of bad guys ... and victims for that matter ... have met their end by taking a single 22, 380, or even a 25 round. The Israeli Mossad carried Beretta 22s for a long time. So did the Mob. As they say, two shots behind the ear and ain't nobody gonna see Pauly no more.

The FBI preferred capacity over caliber because the data says cops under duress miss the target 20-30% of the time. And penetration is better with a 9mm vs 45. This has been debated to death along with 9mm vs. 40.

I like the .45 not because it's inherently better than 9mm. With the right ammo, it does create a nasty wound channel. No matter what size bullet... if a vital organ is hit, it's game over for the bad guy. So is a bigger bullet more effective? Probably sometimes.

I think the bottom line is a lot of people shoot better with a .45 because the guns tend to be better. Not the ammo.
 

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@bad ninja

True that 9mm FMJs can over-penetrate ... in and out. But that's manageable. The bullet type matters. The tiny .22 round into the skull is extremely effective. A lot of bad guys ... and victims for that matter ... have met their end by taking a single 22, 380, or even a 25 round. The Israeli Mossad carried Beretta 22s for a long time. So did the Mob. As they say, two shots behind the ear and ain't nobody gonna see Pauly no more.

The FBI preferred capacity over caliber because the data says cops under duress miss the target 20-30% of the time. And penetration is better with a 9mm vs 45. This has been debated to death along with 9mm vs. 40.

I like the .45 not because it's inherently better than 9mm. With the right ammo, it does create a nasty wound channel. No matter what size bullet... if a vital organ is hit, it's game over for the bad guy. So is a bigger bullet more effective? Probably sometimes.

I think the bottom line is a lot of people shoot better with a .45 because the guns tend to be better. Not the ammo.
Yes shot placement is key, but in a heated situation you aren't going to rise to the occasion, you will fall back to your training.
Most cannot train enough to guarantee a head shot with a .22 in a real world self defense scenario.
But a torso shot? That's doable.

Carrying a .22 as a SD weapon is pants on head retarded.
Shooting an unsuspecting victim in the back of the head isn't self defense.
Israeli carry with an empty chamber, especially with a .22 is suicide unless you have a team of pipe hitters backing you up.
Mossad doesn't carry .22 pistols into a firefight. That's a myth.

Over penetration is a real concern in a public environment or inside an occupied dwelling for a citizen that doesn't have Qualified Immunity, government and union attorneys.

9mm was originally ditched by the Feds because it lacked stopping power, which gave rise to the .40, which was ditched because it hurt the LEOs dainty little hands when they fired it.
I shoot a shitload of 9mm and love the round.
It has its place, but the facts just don't lie.

There is no replacement for displacement.
Bigger bullets make bigger holes.
Bigger holes mean faster blood loss and more internal damage.
 
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I agree with all of that. I was referring to the lethality of any bullet, placed properly. It's true the average Joe is not going to perform well shot placement-wise under duress. It's all about training and drilling. Most people that carry don't invest that kind of time (and money) in real self-defense drilling and instruction. They buy a pistol and holster, go to the range twice a month (maybe) and shoot holes in paper.

Most FBI agents are accountants, not like TV portrays them. We have one in the immediate fam. Now retired. But they do have to qualify.

I will concede your point about behind the ear is not self defense. But a 22 round between the headlights is going to require the perp to put some butter on it right away.
 

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I agree with all of that. I was referring to the lethality of any bullet, placed properly. It's true the average Joe is not going to perform well shot placement-wise under duress. It's all about training and drilling. Most people that carry don't invest that kind of time (and money) in real self-defense drilling and instruction. They buy a pistol and holster, go to the range twice a month (maybe) and shoot holes in paper.

Most FBI agents are accountants, not like TV portrays them. We have one in the immediate fam. Now retired. But they do have to qualify.

I will concede your point about behind the ear is not self defense. But a 22 round between the headlights is going to require the perp to put some butter on it right away.
I shoot probably 500-1000 rounds a month during summer months ( less during hunting season, so as not to scare off the deer).
That's more than any LEO I have ever known.

I know I can't guarantee a headshot under duress.

If I had to use a .22 as self defense I would try to shoot the bad guy in the dick.
Just aim for the belt buckle.
Better chance of hitting the crotch area, and one .22 to the nads will stop a charging Rhino in his tracks.
 
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I could not agree more. A shot to the junk is vastly underrated. :)

Still, the 22 you have is better than the gun you don't have. Limitations... sure. Not exactly a caliber for all seasons (or reasons). But up close and personal, as in the bad guy is in your grille or on top of you, the close-range advantage of a very small pistol like a Beretta Bobcat or the LCP is not trivial. When I was in an urban environment, I always carried a 22 or 32 backup to my EDC. Ankle or in a pocket holster. Usually pocket. Easier access. And some kind of knife, but edged weapons is a whole 'nuther topic.
 

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I could not agree more. A shot to the junk is vastly underrated. :)

Still, the 22 you have is better than the gun you don't have. Limitations... sure. Not exactly a caliber for all seasons (or reasons). But up close and personal, as ion the bad guy is in your grille or on top of you, the close-range advantage of a very small pistol like a Beretta Bobcat or the LCP is not trivial. When I was in an urban environment, I always carried a 22 or 32 backup to my EDC. Ankle or in a pocket holster. Usually pocket. Easier access. And some kind of knife, but edged weapons is a whole 'nuther topic.
I sometimes carry a tiny .22mag revolver in my boot or pocket as a "turn me loose" gun, in case I end up on my back and need to press the gun against the attacker.
If I need it, I have already fucked up.

I do carry a pocket knife but not for SD.
 
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